Episode 2 — Taking Share: Lessons From Leaders

Welcome to Taking Share: Lessons From Leaders with Rob Holmes, Chairman, President & CEO of Texas Capital. During each episode, you will hear from leaders, decision-makers and culture-shapers across industries. What drives them? What tips the scales when making tough calls? How do they continue to evolve? We're here to understand the thoughts behind their actions and discover how they are taking share. Thank you for listening. 

Holmes: Our guest today has led at the highest levels of business and government. Frank Bisignano is the Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, and in October of this year, he was appointed to serve as Chief Executive Officer of the IRS. In this dual role, he is responsible for two of the most important institutions in government, serving millions of Americans every day. Before stepping into public service, he led First Data through a turnaround, where he orchestrated its merger with Fiserv. And as Chairman and CEO of Fiserv, helped create one of the world's most significant FinTech companies. Prior, Frank was Co-Chief Operating Officer at JPMorgan Chase and CEO of its mortgage banking business, where I first had the pleasure of meeting and working with him. Earlier in his career at Citigroup, he famously helped steer the company through 9/11, leading the safe relocation of thousands of employees. Frank has spent decades fixing what others have considered broken, from Wall Street and now government, earning a reputation as Mr. Fix-It along the way. Today, we're talking to Frank about transformation, technology and leading through high-stakes challenges. Commissioner Bisignano, welcome to this episode of Taking Share: Lessons From leaders. It is an honor to have you on. 

Bisignano: It's my pleasure to be here. 

Holmes: So, you've earned a reputation as someone who steps into the big complex organization during critical moments. You did it at JPMorgan Chase during the financial crisis. You certainly did it at First Data. And here you are again. I just have a couple questions about that. First, how do you create a plan that drives quick progress, where you can establish some credibility, but you don't give up the long-term objectives?

Bisignano: Yeah, I think the most important thing is the team. Right. I've never done anything by myself. And, you know, I think it's about bringing people and brand together, being on the same page and then going after what's a really credible set of objectives that maybe people thought they couldn't get done. But once you start moving that crowd and direction, they feel a sense of purpose and they're able to deliver. 

Holmes: My next question was going to be, is there any, in all of those different circumstances that you've been in, is there any one thing that you go after first? Or maybe it's the people like you said. 

Bisignano: I think it's again, a team galvanized, I think, you know, getting together. We just came out of a government shutdown and we'd have daily meetings on what needed to happen. And sometimes it was two times a day. So I think galvanizing a team, everybody being on the same page, allows you to figure out what the most important thing is, right. To go at, you know, at, Social Security, we had super long wait times, right? And they've been there forever. But, we got to crowd together. We talked about it. We brought in technology; I mean, technology is the great enabler. You know, you're never going to get to a really great spot in this day and age without making technology the great enabler. 

Holmes: So with all the change, there's certainly going to be a lot here. There was at First Data, how do you keep everybody on the same page if the people are so like, how do you communicate and galvanize? You said you galvanize people. How do you do it? 

Bisignano: Well, I think it's about making the difficult simple, making the complicated easy. You know, I always like to say, "great athletes make hard plays look easy." I think leadership is being able to help your people see the art of the possible and get clutter out of their way. And once they think the leadership is helping them, it's easier for them to see it is possible. Right. I think also a sense of urgency, like urgency matters. You know, I always say, you know, we need to get this done today because tomorrow is going to have something else. 

Holmes: Yep. 

Bisignano: Right. And so there is, today you must deliver outcome. 

Holmes: Right. So we're sitting here today inside the Social Security Administration headquarters in Baltimore. You serve as Commissioner, but you also were recently appointed as CEO of the IRS, which is a first to serve both, and the first role of the IRS. Can you talk about the need for that role at the IRS? And does it bring complexity, or a misunderstanding of mandate versus the commissioner?

Bisignano: First of all, serving in the President's administration is the greatest honor of my life. I like to tell people all the time, I grew up in a multi-generational immigrant household. My grandfather came to America to fight in World War I to become a citizen. My dad was one of 15 and an orphan, World War II veteran and worked 44 years in Treasury. So I grew up in a house in Brooklyn, New York, where we saluted every day and loved the freedom that this country has given to us. And to be asked by what I believe right now is a President who's getting more done than any other president, to serve in his administration, is the honor of my lifetime. To serve in his administration is even a bigger honor after I've been at it for over half a year. His leadership is unparalleled, what he's done bringing peace in the world. I mean, you know, the greatest dealmaker is the greatest peacemaker. When asked then to run IRS, I was so honored, obviously, the Treasury Secretary is the acting Commissioner. He's confirmed as the Treasury Secretary. I'm confirmed as Social Security Administration Commissioner. But the combination of both of us as partners driving a better outcome. I mean, let's remember, $5.1 trillion of revenue is over 95% of the revenue to the country. And there's many elements of that operation that is similar to Social Security's operation, and maybe the operations I grew up in over the course of life with people who I learned so much to, like Jamie Dimon and Sandy Weill, Henry Kravis at KKR. So I think the whole mission is about serving the American public. Right, so 330 million Americans have Social Security numbers. People talk about 72 million Americans, who received $1.5 trillion in benefits. And we do that all the time, every week, every month. People are being paid. We just announced a cost of living increase. The President did this unbelievable job of making a deductible benefit in the Big Beautiful Bill for Social Security recipients, which was fundamentally two raises we're giving. So if you look at it, what's going on here? What's going on here is the administration focused on serving the American public, because I say 330 million. Yes, we pay out $72 million, but half the people who call, half the people who come into our 1,250 field offices are not beneficiaries today. They're paying into the system. I think about Social Security as the No. 1 input to every American's financial plan. Right, it doesn't matter, yes, we do keep 20% of the people out of poverty with Social Security, but 100% of Americans who are paying into it are counting on it in their retirement plan. And then, you know, if you think about, you know, running a great process, to implement the One Beautiful Bill in a manner that actually will have more money in Americans' pockets, helping affordability in many different ways. I just feel, I feel blessed to have the opportunity.

Holmes: Great. So there are two very large, complex ways just like we talked about, what are the synergies, like where do you focus on? My guess is you focus on synergistic opportunities.

Bisignano: I think, you know, I sat in a meeting just now, I left, which was around the tools to run our technology org. That will be the same exact tool set in both. And that toolset will allow us to understand the ROIs of everything we do better, allow us to deploy resources better. So common tools, that's always a good way to look at it. And that toolset may get applied elsewhere afterwards. So to me, tech's a great enabler. Spending time having technologists figure out, how, in fact, we can use data better, in a manner to help both organizations get a better outcome. I mean, one is, generating payments quite regularly. And paying Americans. The other has to have a flawless tax process, which it has historically. It will always run a great tax process. How can we improve the service process? Get a better digital agenda? I like to have a well-thought-out of IRS in a digital fashion that Americans are comfortable with while being able to execute the President and the Treasury Secretary's plan.

Holmes: So, do you ever, I'm curious, do you ever have employees from each attend the same meeting, if you're talking about a lot of the same things.

Bisignano: On a topical item, we may have two CIOs and we both say, OK, let's talk about this. But it's the way I say it is. My job is running two large organizations. I could have been at JPMorgan and been the Co-Chief Operating Officer and running the mortgage business while doing all the infrastructure functions. Those would have not necessarily been, what would have happened all the time in an organizational structure, but it was right for JPMorgan and it was right for Jamie. And we went and did what was right for America ultimately, because that was the changing of the housing market.

Holmes: What are some of the leadership challenges that have emerged from the dual role?

Bisignano: Where I physically am. But thank the Lord we're on Teams meetings all the day. The beauty is, you know, when I'm on the road, you know, the Social Security office and IRS office aren't far from each other in a lot of cities across America. I spend a lot of time on the road, you know, our field offices and both, you know, we have taxpayer services offices. People come in every day, and we're serving the American public. So I think the mission's exactly the same; the processes to run it are the same when you're in, shut down, you know, we're having labs meetings. They're really the same meetings. But I'll have one at 3 and one at 4:30.

Holmes: Right

Bisignano: And, you know, but the learnings are beneficial across both, sharing ideas across both, having people talk, are good, but, you know, I historically spent time in Maryland and D.C. and New York, before Social Security, and I'm doing the same thing here today, but we got to be out in the field, too. You run a branch business. You know, we have processing centers all across the country. We have field offices all across the country. Every field office has a congressperson that cares about it. So we're on the road a lot.

Holmes: So, it's timely that we're here today because the employees, as we we were walking up to do this conversation, we're all very happy to be back in the office. Talk a little bit about the furlough and what that did to the people here and the challenge of it.

Bisignano: Yeah. I think in Social Security, you know, protect and preserve is a mandate, right? You know, the President's been very clear, you know, it's a mission critical function. And, our job was to improve everything that goes on. And our operating indicators show it, what we did both and wait times in field offices and on bonds, and the ability to get payments out faster. So if you looked at Social Security, our field offices were open the whole time. People were coming in. Our people were at work serving the American public. And, you know, we had what you'd call non-essential jobs, but, that was probably 12% of the whole agency in total. And the rest of the place, we made our payments to Americans multiple times. Nothing, nothing stops the Americans, our phone centers were open. But, you know, people aren't getting paid.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: And I think that, and this would be true at IRS, we had thousands of people that were furloughed, but we had way more people in working, and, it really what I've learned in my six months, sitting here fortunate to be able to serve the country and serve this President is there's something about lifetime. I remember I grew up in a house with one, and I, my father was my role model. And it's kind of odd that I end up back here today doing as. But he loved his job, and I came here. I told the group when I got here, I said, I have a bias towards government workers. My dad was one. And so thus these people come in, they're here to serve the public. While they weren't getting paid. And yeah, of course there's going to be some hardship. So we try to manage through them and allow people. But everybody is so happy to be back. I mean like look at their you know, what happened, you know, didn't need to happen. And thank God we got everybody back to work. There was no reason. There was so many times before that a clean CR got, you know, signed that when this became not about the CR, it became about something else. But, hopefully the American public knows how hard the federal workers work, and hopefully we never have something like this again.

Holmes: Let's hope not. So you've often said the future is a tech story. And at Fiserv, you heavily invested into digital innovation. Now at both the SSA and now the IRS, you're leading major modernization efforts obviously. As these institutions move in a digital first, what innovations are you prioritizing to modernize?

Bisignano: Well, I think, you know, at Social Security, and I encourage you to make sure you have one, My Social Security account. Okay. And that makes you a full digital user of ours. Right. So, yes, you may have to go to a field office, but if you need a replacement card and that's one-third of the reason people come to field offices, you can do it online. You can look at your benefits statement online. We have almost a hundred million My SSA accounts and, My Social Security accounts, and my objective is to get to 200 million. Right. And have a complete digital agency. We have similarity at IRS, where we have a digital presence and the ability to make that stronger. So, you know, our view is, you know, like I said before, we serve the American public. So I think Social Security will be the largest digital consumer financial app out there, actually. You're looking up, you're able to do your retirement calculations there. And, you know, I spoke to people at AARP and talked to them about, well, you should interface with us. Because ultimately we're an input to them.

Holmes: Embedded banking with AARP.

Bisignano: Yeah. Through, but like we have all the information for retirement planners and we're the No. 1 element in everyone's retirement plan. And so that vision's crystallized, and then on top of it, being able to transact with us on the web, whether it's a change of address, whatever it may be, in a manner that's appropriate, a lot of people use their income verification from Social Security for other purposes, and then they don't have to come in to the office to do it. They can do it, and then taking a phone system and modernize it across the country, which we've done, which the field offices and the 800 number could never coordinate, the field offices did not have a phone system. We did that in five months, got it out to them, and much different experience. And you'll watch that same things happen at IRS.

Holmes: I can only imagine the cost savings and efficiencies of becoming more digital. Is there a contemplation of mandating it?

Bisignano: Well, I, you know, if you walk down the hall, there's 10 people that wish I would, but I'm very conscious of communities that don't have the capability.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Of people who don't have the capability. And so let's just, let's, for all those who can, let's advocate for them to, and then let's be there for all those that can't. And that's been a very conscious decision of mine. I have no desire to shut field offices. You know, there, as you know, I think there's more bank branches in America now than there were in 1990. But when I was a young banker in 1990, maybe I wasn't that young, but you get it, young relative to today. You know, people will tell you about the future of the branch.

Holmes: Right. 

Bisignano: But the future branch changed but they didn't go away. I think the future of a Social Security office would change, but they won't go away.

Holmes: So, it's a topic today. And so I got to ask about it. What about artificial intelligence? Where are you in the journey of that or, I can imagine that your data, you have the biggest database maybe in the world.

Bisignano: Yeah.

Holmes: And it's got to be accurate because you're using it every day all day. That's more than most companies.

Bisignano: I have Friday to go an AI agenda through here, I mean it's touching the surface.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: And we will have a large one also in IRS, if you take a process, you know, in Social Security, there's almost 1,000 judges adjudicating cases throughout the year. And people, those are disability cases. And I've been very, very clear that we're going to use AI, but we're not going to use AI to decision things. We're always going to have a person there, but we're going to use it to make all processes better. We can bring a lot of that data that comes together that takes, you know, sometimes hundreds of days for a disability case and be able to do it in a technical fashion to make it easier, better, and give a lot of options. But I'm very clear we're not going to have that be the sole decision.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Right? I think in terms of how we handle dealing with clients across the board, our ability to speed up. So I see it as a great enabler of being a better service arm in a manner that takes the rote out of most of our people's work.

Holmes: So let's go back to the IRS. If we could just be candid, it is not known to be America's favorite agency, right? There's been a lot of leadership change recently, so you're stepping into a moment when confidence in the agency is low. Maybe that's why you're chosen. What do you think about rebuilding trust and changing the public's perception? And what is that? Where does that stand on the priority of leading the agency?

Bisignano: One thing is, I think, you know, like, if, first of all, I can't I can't really tell you over time if it's thought of better or worse, to be honest. But what I would say is I want us to be highly effective and a great service model. I don't know anything better than making it easier for people to deal with us. Right. We need to. And that can only happen technically. It's not about adding more people. So I think the technology agenda, in both SSA and IRS is about a service agenda, right? I think AI's about a service agenda. And I think, I probably am sitting in the seats I am, by the good grace of the President and God, because the President has belief that I have the capability to change the service model. And we saw it already in SSA, but it's not going to happen without an attack agenda.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Right? And none of this is going to happen by playing smiley faces. Right? The people in IRS are equally dedicated to do a great job for the American public as the people at SSA, they just have different jobs.

Holmes: Right. Right. But there is, it is different, I think, going to work when there's an image problem. When I took over the bank, we had an image problem, that's for sure. Is there a different leadership style you take to help them manage through that?

Bisignano: Well, I mean, I had a dinner the other evening, partially instigated by me, but not created by me, with six prior commissioners.

Holmes: Oh, wow.

Bisignano: Right. And, one of them came to visit me. Wonderful man. And, said, hey, we're in this chat group. This group. And they were like, "What is this? CEO of IRS?" And the other one said, somebody chimed in and said, "I know him, I know who he is," or something like that. You know, "He's going to be good." Somebody else, "I like to have his resume," you know, that "Maybe that's exactly what we need," you know, and so when the guy came and told me that, I said would they ever consider having a dinner? And he said, oh, let me put it out there. And in two weeks we had the dinner. 

Holmes: That's great. 

Bisignano: Right. And their point of view was that, you know, they were all, and by the way, they were, it was, there's not that many, God, I don't know how they, there's not that many living commissioners.

Holmes: Right, right.

Bisignano: Right. Confirmed commissioners. So six of them was a large majority and the seventh, one of the seventh, who just ended up with a flight problem. And so, we talked about what it takes, the balance to get it right. And they were like, look, your steady hand will be usually helpful, an attack agenda that hasn't ever really gotten to where it should have.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: So I, I'm greatly encouraged by them. I'm always encouraged by the Treasury Secretary, and I find the team, you know, we'll be in a staff meeting tomorrow morning talking about how to run the joint better. And, you know, it's got to be a tech agenda.

Holmes: Good. So, let's talk a little about leadership. You've taken on some of the toughest jobs of finance now, government, where your decisions have been closely watched by many different constituents. What has that level of scrutiny taught you about leading when everything you do is surveilled, like everybody's watch you?

Bisignano: Well, you know, there's.

Holmes: Like probably walking into this room, they want to see if you were smiling.

Bisignano: Well I think the thing that's a little different here than maybe I even anticipated originally is, you know, when you're in a corporate environment, you could argue there's some jostling in a company, but everybody's on the same mission. And then, you know, you have clients and you have shareholders and you and them get on the same page and you're up and running. Here you have some people really rooting for you and some people really not. Right. And I wasn't really prepared for people not rooting for me to do a great job with Social Security. Right. So that was an unusual dynamic. But then you tell yourself, you know, OK, post the numbers, let everybody know what's going on. We're about to send the, you know, we have a 9/30 year-end, and we're putting out our annual letter to Congress. But that was an activity that wouldn't be done during the shutdown.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: So we're about to issue that, and we'll get a lot of feedback on what we're doing. You know, we have a set of performance metrics that we commit annually to Congress. But yeah, some people just won't care about any of that. You know?

Holmes: Right. Right.

Bisignano: And I'm sorry that, know that that exists. So you just stay maniacally focused on keeping your team tight, having everybody not pay attention to noise, as I always used to say, "you know, there's boo birds in right field at Yankee Stadium." You can't listen to the boo birds, you gotta zone it out and go get the job done.

Holmes: Right. OK. So, back on leadership, what's the one piece of advice you wish you received earlier in your career? 

Bisignano: Shoot, I was, you know, I was lucky. I was lucky young, I worked for a guy named Don Parcells, an All-American running back at West Point, who had a brother named Bill Parcells and who...

Holmes: I thought you were a Jets fan.

Bisignano: I am, I am, I am, I am, but Parcell was the coach for the Jets for a few years.

Holmes: Okay.

Bisignano: I'm like an everything fan. You know, my son's godfather is an ex-Giant with Super Bowl rings, and so I can root for anybody I need.

Holmes: And you're a Philly fan now too, right?

Bisignano: Howie's my guy.

Holmes: OK.

Bisignano: Howie's my guy. Him and I were texting last night.

Holmes: OK. Yeah. See I keep up with you.

Bisignano: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got Larry Fitzgerald always talking about me, like, you know, I'm a mentor to him. But I think I was really lucky that, from my mid-20s, I had these unbelievable losses and then as CEO, you know, I worked in Jamie's org, but Sandy was there. So I mean, nobody can prepare you to be a CEO. Would you agree with that?

Holmes: Oh, totally.

Bisignano:  Right. So that one like I, in the beginning I was like, wow. And I talked to, Charlie or Mike Cavanaugh. I went and I'd be like, you know, like, were we ever prepared to do these things, but you can't be prepared for them because you got to go do them.

Holmes: That's right.

Bisignano: And I say first, you're a CEO. Jobs are really, really hard. You know, Walmart just announced one. And I think they said something really relevant about, you know, how important it is, you know, to get all the working early because CEO jobs are hard. So, I just think that I was lucky, I don't, I mean, like, you can't be advised on what to do if two planes hit two towers and you got 16,000 people, you can't be advised what to do. But you can be supported. Right. I think Sandy Weill 'til today, we sent notes. I sent him a note about 9/11. You know, I sent Jamie a note, you know, as you know, thanking him for everything he'd ever did for me. You know, just being a great leader. So I feel lucky, I feel blessed. I grew up in a great house, and that's where it all started. You know, the leadership at home helps you a lot.

Holmes:  Yeah.

Bisignano: You know, doesn't mean they, you know, he was a government worker, but, you know, he was smarter than anything. And it was a great house to live in.

Holmes: Sounds like you're really enjoying the public sector career.

Bisignano: Enjoy is an odd word. People say to me all the time. You having fun? I go, well, that's like a different word. I'm enjoying the fact that I'm serving the country for a great President on a great team that I think's unparalleled. I think, you know, if you want to talk about any position I think we're strong up the middle. I think, you know, anywhere you go. I think, so I'm glad. Not for one second have I rethought it.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Right? Like I there's nothing I miss. You know, it's kind of, I laughed, I was confirmed, I don't miss the last thing. I loved the last thing.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: You know, I walked in a room today and there were a bunch of people here. And of course, I said, you have a different beast. If I was in a different job and talking about, why aren't you guys out there generating revenue? But obviously that's not your job. So let's talk about how we're going to serve the public better.

Holmes: Right. So it sounds like, it's not better or worse, but it's the right time for you to be here.

Bisignano: 100%. Well, you know, I mean, you know, it's the right time because the President asked.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Right? Right.

Holmes: Right.

Bisignano: Here's the right. Whatever time the President asks is a good time to say yes.

Holmes: Especially to this President.

Bisignano: Yes, 100%. 

Holmes: OK. So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions as we close. If you allow me...

Bisignano: Of course.

Holmes: These are just supposed to be a little more fun, but shorter. Who's had the biggest influence on your leadership style?

Bisignano: I'd have to say Jamie Dimon.

Holmes: Yeah.

Bisignano: I mean, I mean, Sandy Weill was there and Henry Kravis was there, but, you know...

Holmes: You were with a Jamie a long time.

Bisignano: I was with Jamie a long time. And his is the greatest in the country, in my mind, in the world at what he does. And, you know, I love him for everything he did for me.

Holmes: Good. How do you unwind after a long day?

Bisignano: Oh, you know, tonight I got a date with my son to shoot some pool with a football game on tonight after we have dinner.

Holmes: That's great. So who wins?

Bisignano: He claims he beat me more than I beat him, but it's probably closer to tie, and I can get inside his head.

Holmes: I bet you can.

Bisignano: But I, You know, I want to talk about some of the things he's got to get done. So I sent him a note early this morning, said, you know, after your work's done, I want to shoot some pool or we'll talk about, you know, his college journey to play D1 baseball.

Holmes: That's great. Yeah. So, what is the one thing people would be surprised to learn about you?

Bisignano: Oh, I never I mean, I'm surprised a lot, you know, I mean, I don't know, you know, probably that I go to mass on Friday morning and every Friday religiously, every Sunday, you know, and so, like, I have an 8:00 slot, if I could go to mass every morning at 8, I would.

Holmes: Right, good for you. I'm pretty much like that, too.

Bisignano: Yeah. It's good. Church is good for you, man. 

Holmes: It's good for you. Good for the soul. What's the one book everyone should read?

Bisignano: Oh, you know, I'm deep on Moneyball. I've always been deep on Moneyball. The book.

Holmes: Right, right.

Bisignano: Not the movie. I built the Global Transaction bank at Citi. I read Moneyball across on a plane, from New York to London. And I came back and told everybody we got to change every way we look at numbers here, you know, we got to really look at what people's global wallets are around cash management. Something we never studied. And Transaction Bank ended up being Citi's best business for a long, long time after Moneyball.

Holmes: Okay, Moneyball. I'll read it. Okay, I'm gonna wrap up with the one last question that I'd like to ask all my guests. And it's the most important one. What's the single most important trait for an effective leader?

Bisignano: Oh, I think it's having your guys' back. You know that. Your guys, and that can be women, all know that, you know, if they got a tough situation, the boss is going to jump in the foxhole with them, you know, and with that, you could get commitment beyond what people imagine, you know, because they can be fearless, you know, they can be fearless and know that, well, if I have a problem, you know, I'm talking about a rational problem... 

Holmes: Right, right.

Bisignano: One within the lines. But, you know, there's problems within the lines every day that your teammates need help with. So, I want to be shoulder to shoulder with my people. And I think it matters, I think it matters a lot.

Holmes: Well, America needs you to be successful. I'm highly confident you will be. And I appreciate you being on the show.

Bisignano: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. You're a great leader.

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