Episode 6 — Taking Share: Lessons From Leaders

Welcome to Taking Share: Lessons From Leaders with Texas Capital. During each episode, you will hear from leaders, decision-makers and culture-shapers across industries. What drives them? What tips the scales when making tough calls? How do they continue to evolve? We're here to understand the thoughts behind their actions and discover how they are taking share. 

Holmes: Our guest today has led two of Texas' most prominent universities, taking on both at moments of significant change. Jay Hartzell is the President of Southern Methodist University. Before that, he spent nearly 25 years at the University of Texas at Austin. There, he held a series of academic leadership roles, including Executive Director of the Real Estate Finance and Investment Center, Chair of the Finance Department, and Senior Associate Dean for Academic Affairs. Prior to being named Dean of the McCombs Business School and in 2020 becoming President of the University of Texas, Jay took over as president of UT just as Covid was upending higher education. Over the next five years, he led the university through a move to the SEC, a $6 billion capital campaign and record enrollment, graduation rates and research spending. Then, in 2025, he made a surprising move of his own, leaving UT to become the President of Southern Methodist University. He joined a university with significant momentum and saw an opportunity to build on that momentum alongside a city experiencing dynamic change of its own. Today, we're going to talk about what it takes to drive change at an institution that is already successful, why Jay made the move from Austin to Dallas and the role he believes SMU can play in the city's next chapter. Jay, welcome to Taking Share. It's great to have you here. Let's talk about how we got here. You didn't want to grow up to be a president of a university or even a finance teacher I don't think. You said you described yourself as growing up in a family of creatives. What did you mean by that? And how did you take such a different path than your mom and dad? 

Hartzell: Yeah. Good to see you, Rob. Good to be with you.

Holmes: Good to be with you.

Hartzell: And, yeah, it's funny when you feel like the the rest of the family must have come from a different gene pool. So my mom is a pianist. My dad was a sportswriter, sister's a pianist, brother's an artist. And, somehow I just came out different, I guess, and always liked things like math and science and that sort of part of things. I love to consume the rest. I like to listen to music. I just apparently don't have much talent for it. So, I was better at spreadsheets.

Holmes: So your brothers an artist, a paid artist?

Hartzell: He ended up working for the Opera Company of Detroit, Michigan Opera Theater. Couldn't make a living solely as a painter, sold a few works, but not enough to pay the bills. And so he really wanted to work in the art scene and ended up in the opera.

Holmes: That's great. Okay, so what was it about economics and finance that grabbed your attention, taking you first to NYU and then to Austin? Can you just talk a little about the journey, how you got to Austin?

Hartzell: Yeah, sure. So, econ just seemed to fit my brain. I still remember the first day of micro class as an undergrad, when the professor was talking about what are the side implications if you legalize drugs, what to do to crime, wants to do to prices, that sort of stuff. And it was a way to me of thinking about the world that could uncover implications of certain behaviors or actions or events that I hadn't thought about. And it resonated with me. I really liked it. And finance to me was econ with more numbers. It was more applied, which also fit. And so I ended up double majoring in both. Ended up getting a PhD in finance, and then somehow got super lucky and got this first job at NYU, went from being a, you know, redneck from Oklahoma. And then somebody who had been in Texas for quite a while, but then ended up in New York City.

Holmes: So, did you like New York?

Hartzell: I loved it as a place to work, to be a finance professor there is fun.

Holmes: Yeah.

Hartzell: Like you feel like you're in the middle of it, you know? And I felt like I was in the middle of things that I'd only seen on TV. And that was great. It just, it's hard place to live. Professors don't pay. It doesn't pay what Goldman Sachs pays. So, as a young professor with two little kids, it was hard. And pretty soon, kind of real things were going to start to get in the way. Like, how do you handle schools, right? Can I ever buy a house? So the chance to come back to UT, it also gave me a chance to be back on a real campus. As much I loved NYU and teaching there and doing research, I missed a college campus. Right. And so to come back to Austin was really special.

Holmes: So you kind of viewed that as a homecoming. 

Hartzell: Oh for sure. Yeah. My joke, which is almost true, is UT called and offered me this chance to come back, and I hung up and my wife had packed. Like it was a done deal. And it felt something I never thought would be possible. Universities don't typically hire their own PhDs. And so, you know, NYU made that possible. But it was very much to me a way to come back home.

Holmes: And was your wife practicing at the time?

Hartzell: No. At the time, she had gotten a master's in higher education administration, had worked a little bit in student housing, but was taking some time off for the kids. And then later went back and got another master's in social work and became a therapist.

Holmes: Obviously, the series of the podcast is Lessons From Leaders and so I'm curious as to, as you look back on a very long, super successful career by any standard, who would you view as a mentor or the biggest influence on you along the way? 

Hartzell: Yeah, probably two or three. One early one was a professor at Trinity, guy named Phil Cooley, and I worked for him as an undergrad. He had a little $500 grant. And to have somebody help him with his textbook and that kind of thing. And I got the job and worked for him. And that's the guy I called later when I was trying to decide what to do with my career. I had been working a little bit, wasn't happy, and I called him back and said, what should I do? He wrote a letter to a woman named Laura Starks at UT. She let me in and she became my advisor, my dissertation chair. And she would be another one that was hugely helpful and influential. And, you know, for a long time for me. And the third would be Tom Gilligan. He was the dean before me at UT. And he appointed me as department chair and then Senior Associate Dean. And I still have nuggets I got from Tom. You know, one of the ones I love is, "If nobody's upset, it wasn't really a decision." And it's things like that. He has sort of these ways of putting things that resonated with me and connected. So those are three people that all were really influential for me. 

Holmes: Well, you were very influential as the head of the real estate efforts there. You had such a strong following from so many great people. And I remember when they were talking about replacing Gilligan and naming a dean, and these guys just rallied behind you, and which says a lot about you and what you did and all your contributions. But when, you know, when you went to UT in '21, I mean, sorry, in 2001, did you ever envision yourself becoming the dean of McCombs or the president of the school?

Hartzell: Gosh, no. You know, I think. And I would imagine somewhat similar for you as, as CEO, people see kind of sometimes where we end up and think there was a plan, right? 

Holmes: Right. No plan.

Hartzell: No plan. And I was really thrilled to be hired back to UT as a professor. I was worried about getting tenure. You know, it's an up or out moment for a professor. I was focused on that. And then I kind of said yes to jobs. And I kept thinking about optionality with this job. Give me more options. Could I unwind it if I hated it? Did I have an exit option? Right. And I took the real estate center. That was another great just stroke of luck where I got to be around those people. Guy like Mark Gibson.

Holmes: Yeah, 

Hartzell: we did that together for almost a decade, and that's another person who was super helpful and influential and that, you know, down the road turned out that real estate job honestly probably made the dean job possible. But it was, you know, sequence of things that, you know, I think I've won like five lotteries.

Holmes: Right? When you got the job of president at UT, I told people that the great thing about Jay being the president of UT is he could screw up a lot because he's so likable and such a nice guy that they would never get rid of him. You know, you had the benefit. You had the benefit of just being one of the good guys. So but you've led transformation efforts and institutions that were already highly successful. That might be harder than fixing something that's broken, right? And how do you convince people who are already feel really good about where they are and what they're doing, that something needs to change and it could be even better. How do you do that?

Hartzell: It's a great question too. And I have laughed kind of in hindsight, that it feels like the classes I blew off in school were leadership and strategy, and then all of a sudden you get these jobs. Yeah. Whoops. Yeah. You know, go back and read the syllabus. Yeah. Maybe I should have paid more attention. And so the way I've thought about, in particular, a case for change when things are going well and I've, I've felt the same here at SMU as I did at UT, universities on the rise doing well, and you're part of it, is to try to set some sort of standard or benchmark about why we can still do better. At Texas, I talked a lot about we can catch Michigan and Berkeley, right. And those are the standards for public education in this country. And therefore, I would say the world. And we can catch them. And here at SMU, it's things are going really well, but there's another gear. And for us to be one of the nation's really, truly special universities in our version. We've got to really push. So it's just trying to set an aspirational goal. Trying to get a sense of what winning would look like. And especially, you know, in my experience in Austin and Dallas, Texans like to win.

Holmes: For sure.

Hartzell: If you frame it as, hey, we're in, it may feel good, but we're in a battle here and we got to win.

Holmes: So to be one of the best public institutions for education in the country and thus the world, as you said, I guess you feel very strongly about the research side of that, at least you did at UT, right? And so tell me about that journey, because you had a 10-year plan to become to be improve research, and did you? Was it successful?

Hartzell: Yeah. It was certainly on the way up. And, you know, a milestone, for example, we hit at UT was crossing $1 billion a year in research expenditures. And so I think the research mission is part and parcel with the best universities in the country. Not every university's that way. You know, a lot of small liberal arts colleges are wonderful places to get an education but are not research places. But I think if you go to a school with a faculty who is doing cutting-edge research, it can and should be a different experience for the students in the class. And society, I think, needs universities to discover things. You know, at our core, we create knowledge and then we disseminate it. But I think that knowledge creation piece of what we do is, is really a key, a key part of it all.

Holmes: So you talk about being comfortable with some big bets failing in the past. How do you create a culture where failing is acceptable so people will take the risk?

Hartzell: I think I would say maybe, maybe first as I make sure I fail. No. That's partly, part serious, but part joke. But I think a lot of us just, leading by example there and, and telling the people that you're working with, hey, I got your back if this doesn't work out, and then you've got to live up to that. And as long as people are honest and can sort of have a moment of self-assessment as a person or as an organization, here's what didn't go well, that's okay. If, you know, if we're never taking enough of a chance, if every single thing works, we didn't take enough risk.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: And you've got to have some things that don't make it. Otherwise you left things on the table.

Holmes: So you've taken on numerous roles with increasing amounts of complexity, especially at the time you got those jobs. So let's just face it, I mean you didn't, there you weren't so lucky in my mind and you managed it fantastic. I was a big fan and supporter, as you know. But are there some leadership principles or lessons, learnings that you took that you could apply to all those situations? Do you think?

Hartzell: Yeah, I think a couple things. One, I think is, trying to be yourself. And part of what hit me when I first became, for example, a dean, I thought I should behave more deanly and tried to be more, you know, more formal, serious, whatever that looked like. And situations certainly call for that. And I feel it certainly as president. But really quickly realized I have to do it my way.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: Otherwise, I wasn't being authentic to who I am. And so that's one that stuck with me. And the other one, I would say, which probably sounds obvious in some ways, but reminding yourself what the North Star is and, you know, we're at universities and at the end of the day, we typically can connect the dots between whatever it is the problem of the day, the crisis of the moment, and our students.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: Is are the things I'm doing in the moment really ultimately about the students and how does it how does it impact them positively, hopefully? That to me gives me a sense of saying, let's keep our eye on the right things.

Holmes: So let's bring it back to SMU. We've talked about it 20 years-plus at UT. The school is thriving. You came to SMU. Some people questioned it as much smaller private school. They are very different institutions. Why was it the right time to leave UT and what did you see at SMU that made you made you willing to give up seemingly so much?

Hartzell: Yeah. I think, if if things go well in one's career and you get lucky like I've been, you end up having a moment where you get to think about what's the impact I can have, can I be part of a team that's making a fundamental difference in some organization? And as much as I love, still love UT in so many ways, it felt like a chance to have a really significant impact at SMU. And it's a place that's been on the rise. And the way the board positioned it was, you know, why can't we be that next version of a truly exceptional university in the country? And we get to decide what we mean by that. But that's a pretty special opportunity. And I thought it was possible because of the support, because of Dallas, because of the trends that we've been enjoying. And so the it's exceptionally rare for a university to really propel itself that far forward. And it felt like the chance to be part of that.

Holmes: There's a stark contrast between a super successful private school and a large public university. The day-to-day difference of being president. Can you talk about that?

Hartzell: Sure.

Holmes: Is there one or is it the same?

Hartzell: No, I think there is. I think. "The, you know, the governance model is different." So I've got a much different kind of board setup. Right. Instead of nine governor-appointed regents over, I think it was 14 institutions, I've got a board of more like 50, that are looking after this one institution.

Holmes: A larger board, but possibly more simple.

Hartzell: And more, more corporate mindset, I would say, what feels more like a board of directors in a corporate context in some ways. And back to your comment, I think it's a place, with fewer competing objectives.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: I think it feels more like, you know, I think a big public, and this is not just UT, any big public, people feel a different sense of ownership over it, whether it's a citizen on the street or a board member or a donor or a football fan.

Holmes: Right. And it's a system, not a, like you said, that's right, a unified goal and vision.

Hartzell: So this feels like a place where it is about a quarter of the size. So I jokingly think about divide by four. But it's also got simplicity. And I think the sort of mission or vision of the place, according to the main stakeholders, if you will. 

Holmes: Right. You inherited major strategic initiatives here that were already underway. How do you marry the vision that what was here and what you want to do next with it? And how did you assess what you wanted to change and what you don't? 

Hartzell: Yeah, it's a good question. I think, part is to remind kind of everybody and a lot of the speaking engagements I do, I start back with the charge that I was given by the board when I was hired. Right. Is to elevate the academic profile and reputation impact of the school, and for all the things that it's been enjoying, it's a beautiful campus and much more significant demand by students who want to be here. Faculty has gotten stronger, but there's another level of academic quality that we aspire to be part of. And so starting there and then going back and saying, okay, so something that either was underway or was on the drawing board, is it consistent with academic excellence?

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: Is it going to be something that I can connect that dot, that thread? Or is it something that, you know, maybe it goes on the side burner for a little bit while we focus on something that is more directly related to to what we want to do academically. So meanwhile, you know, I was following somebody who was incredibly successful for 30 years. So you have to honor that, celebrate it, recognize it, be grateful for it. There's nothing, back to your earlier question, it's not trying to blow up stuff. But it's also trying to say, well, at this moment in our in our development as an institution, here's what the next sort of set of goals looks like.

Holmes: So I think you call that Mustang Charge. Is that right?

Hartzell: Yeah. That's right. The plan we unveiled about two weeks ago. We're calling that strategy, the strategic plan, Mustang Charge.

Holmes: And what, I hope you're here for 30 years, like your predecessor,

Hartzell: that's. I don't know,

Holmes: I hope I am too.

Hartzell: That's right.

Holmes: What is it, what does success look like in a decade? Like, so you roll it out two weeks ago. Ten years from now, what is success for you?

Hartzell: Yeah, at the end of the day, to me, it's sort of a three-legged stool. It's, can more students that we want to come here, do they say yes to us? So when we make an offer to a student to attend, for whatever program or degree, do we win that battle more often? Same for faculty. When we go out and try to hire faculty, are we able to get more of our share of the ones that we want to join us? And the third I would say is student outcomes. Are they getting great jobs at places like Texas Capital Bank? And are they getting into great grad schools? And if students are enjoying success and, and finding their hopes and dreams, if we're getting more of the students and faculty we want, that's winning to me. I think things like rankings will follow if that's all true. But I don't feel as good about focusing on the ranking, but I do think the same kinds of things that support students and faculty coming here will also support how we're perceived and our reputation.

Holmes: Well, so we have 40 junior spots every year. We have 4,000 applications. And there's a lot filled by SMU grads. And they do really, really well.

Hartzell: Thank you. Thank you.

Holmes: They do great at the firm.

Hartzell: So you can take a couple more.

Holmes: I bet we do. Okay. So I love the framework, if you will, that you've talked about in the past: academics, research, athletics, art, student experience. You know, all of them important. All of them work together. I just think it's the perfect, the right strategy. How do you make them all coexist, though? Bring each of those agendas forward at the same time?

Hartzell: Yeah. I think it's first a realization, we probably can't do every single thing we want to ever do all at once. Right. Creating this expectation that whatever activities we're undertaking, they're going to come in waves. And so I'm worried, you know, that if a faculty member or staff member says, I had this great idea, but I don't I don't see it in the plan. We want to create understanding and the expectation that there's still time to go do the next great idea. And so if you're not in that first set, it's all good. Secondly, I think is just helping people see the interconnectedness. Right now, for example, with athletics, it's a lot easier case to make than it would have been three years ago. So since joining the ACC two years ago, undergraduate applications are up 65% here.

Holmes: Wow.

Hartzell: Two years, and the timing is wrong. It's not me. Right. Because like I joined it halfway through that. And most of the bump was that first year in the conference. So when we talk about that,

Holmes: that's incredible.

Hartzell: Incredible. And I you know, I've said you can debate whether college sports should matter, but it matters. And especially a place like us. And so when you lay that out for the faculty or the staff on campus, they understand. Oh, I get a different reason why you're worrying about the athletic enterprise. It's part of what's driving our reputation, our brand. And I think, you know, I think for good and bad, the SMU journey, you know, you don't have to look very far to see that athletics affects the brand.

Holmes: No doubt about it.

Hartzell: And good and bad. And so I think if you lay it out in that way and show the the connective tissue across those four or five areas, people say, oh, okay. I see, having a great art museum brings people to campus.

Holmes: I think it's, as an alum of the business school and a, I guess a citizen of Dallas my whole life, even though I got to commute to New York for a long time, I love the fact that it seems like SMU has quit apologizing for sports that in the past. You know, it seems like in the past couple of years, y'all just shed that and and owned it and totally looking forward and have a great sense of pride again. I think that's really powerful.

Hartzell: I think so too. And I give all kinds of, you know, kudos to people like David Miller and Gerald Turner and people who made all that happen. Honestly, I don't think I would have taken the job if it wasn't in a big time conference. Yeah, yeah, I think that makes the ascent that we're on possible. I think it's elevated the brand. It's a lot more fun. And so I like that full college experience. That's back to part of why I left NYU to come back to Texas. Was that full college. And so athletics is a key part of that for me.

Holmes: So I want to come back to this. But the ascent, SMU ascent, the Mustang Charge. Talk a little bit about research here, where you are in the journey.

Hartzell: Yeah, I think if it's, you know, to use the baseball analogy, probably like second inning, early.

Holmes: Oh, wow.

Hartzell: It's I mean, maybe third. We crossed the threshold to be among the country's top tier research institutions right after I joined,

Holmes: which is fantastic.

Hartzell: Fantastic. And, you know, the state, this region needs more of that sort of research component. So we're on the map. It's not like we're starting from zero. But I think if you think about where we can still grow, I feel like at the end of the day, a lot of that effort to be more academically excellent is going to involve more great faculty developing ones we have and hiring more. And that's going to show up in the research. And so we just got about two weeks ago got the biggest grant award we'd ever received from the Department of Energy.

Holmes: That's fantastic.

Hartzell: Yeah, I heard about yeah, about $25 million total. The previous record at SMU was $14.

Holmes: Wow.

Hartzell: And so, you know, you get a sense of that momentum. And we just need more of those $25s to turn into $50s, and then we're on our way.

Holmes: That's great. So, your framework also besides this principal leadership, what leadership qualities do you hope your students develop during their time here?

Hartzell: Yeah. It's interesting. I think, when I've talked to people about this effort, it seems to resonate with them. You know, our students tend to be well-rounded, can talk to humans, can fit in an organization. They're very smart, but also have high EQ. And so there's something around that leader context I think that really fits who we are. But we also, you know, you can be a leader without principles too.

Holmes: Right, for sure.

Hartzell: And so having a having a North Star that's grounded in something I think is important. So what I want students to think about when they're here is kind of wrestling with what leadership means to them. What's their approach like, what are the things they think are fundamental values and characteristics of how they want to serve, how they want to lead? And that may look different for different kinds of students. But I think some of the same basics of caring, not just about one's self, that the organization that they're serving, worrying about other people's outcomes as well as their own. Because that's all in the collective best interest. I think that's the kind of thing that we'll be able to to connect those dots for our students.

Holmes: I got to hear a little bit how you put this into motion. I had lunch, I believe it was yesterday with Shiloh.

Hartzell: Isn't he awesome?

Holmes: Oh he's great. Yeah, yeah. Glad he's here. And my cousin, Cullum Clark, who's the economist there. I'm not the smart one in the family, clearly. But they're talking about doing a class at the Bush Center. With leadership and ethics in economics. Yeah. Which in concert with the university, which I think is fantastic.

Hartzell: I agree. Yeah. Part of the big coup, and, you know, Cullum is here, which has been a great strength of the place and a connection point with the Bush Center. And then to get Shiloh to come as the new CEO of the Bush Center. And part of it was he wanted to teach and he was teaching at Princeton. Incredibly successful class on leadership, had over 200 students a year with a waitlist, and Princeton's not very big undergraduates, right? So to get him to come here, that class will be in our curriculum in the spring, and we're building out, and Cullum's class be part of this, we're building out this minor in principle leadership that any student with any major, from art history to English to finance, can pursue.

Holmes: That's great.

Hartzell: And I think it's going to be really awesome.

Holmes: Can I take it?

Hartzell: Yeah. You. I would say maybe you can place out. There's no, but we'd love to have. We are going to talk. We have to talk to some corporate executives like you who have said, you know, maybe there's something about having leadership conversations that could be valuable.

Holmes: Yeah, I think so.

Hartzell: And I think it feels like, I probably don't have to motivate, it's societally, I think we need to be having those conversations. 

Holmes: So you talked about being in the ACC, propelling some momentum there, momentum and research. Do you find momentum from being in Dallas?

Hartzell: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Holmes: So let's talk a little bit about that in the Dallas office that you created.

Hartzell: Sure. Yeah. And one more reason why I came is the location of the university. If you think about where universities have distinct advantages, the thing you it's really hard to change is location.

Holmes: Sure. Yeah. 

Hartzell: Right. And I think if you look at the universities have really gotten significantly better over decades, they tend to be in cities that are thriving, you know, NYU is much stronger than it used to be. USC, I think Vanderbilt's having that same moment with Nashville, that they've been doing very well. And I think part of SMU's journey is because of Dallas. But there's so much more, I think, that we can do. So this Dallas office concept is meant to be a front door, a front porch to connect to Dallas, to be a better partner. And everything from help our students find internships and jobs, find research opportunities for their faculty, co-host events, help upskill and reskill workforce of the region. And really, in many ways, not only help the local community, but learn how to do things better that we can take at scale to the rest of the country, in the world.

Holmes: Yeah, I think I had offices in most of the major cities in Dallas in 22 countries at my last job, and I just think this is one of the most dynamic economies in the world. I don't think that's, I don't think that's talk.

Hartzell: Yeah.

Holmes: I mean, if you look at the growth and the job growth and what's happened in Texas, the Texas Legislature last summer and all the changes they made, the corporate relocations and, but then I'm in the Economic Club of Dallas. I'm on the board, and we had a dinner last night and with David Rubenstein and what people talked about was people moving here and the openness of people willing to work with each other and help each other. Do you feel that people moving here and the executives that are new to Dallas as well as traditionally here in Dallas, both reaching out to you to help?

Hartzell: Yeah, it's remarkable. I mean, and clearly we have a lot of alumni in the region. We've got a lot of parents and the like. But coming here as a new person, you can just feel that the city, the region are rooting for us. I think they understand that the city's stronger with a great university, and this university is stronger with a great city. But you can feel the reception, the warmth, the support. One of my first things I got to do when I got here was a dinner with CEOs. And part one is that even happened?

Holmes: Right?

Hartzell: And I was invited. That hit me. And part two, you go around the table and they say where they're from and you're like, oh, wow. Yeah. Like I'm in the major leagues now, right? You know, and it's so cool. And not only because it feels like, you know, there is a camaraderie and a collective effort and pride in that. But also just as a new person to get the sense of the depth and breadth of this place. You know, I think the region is probably, what, two and a half times the population of the state I came from.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: You know, the scale is remarkable, and it's a civicly minded place. People that care about its future, and they want it to succeed.

Holmes: Good. And I think just for the diversity of the Texas economy, with no subsegment being greater than 10% of the GDP, I mean, we're going to have our own challenges, but I like our hand more than other places in the country.

Hartzell: I don't know where I, I don't know any place I would trade for.

Holmes: You can't replicate it.

Hartzell: Yeah. And if this is not widely understood as the second most important business city in the country, it should be for sure. Right. And, and I think it shows up in the relocations, it shows up and, you know, we take 60% of our students from out of state. But almost roughly 70% of our graduates stay in Dallas. So, you know, 40% Texas when they come in, 70%-ish Dallas when they leave. 

Holmes: And I have a lot of, we've hired some people from New York at the firm here. And a lot of the candidates that come, they're moving here because they want their kids to go to school here.

Hartzell: Right.

Holmes: You know, which is kind of cool.

Hartzell: Yeah.

Holmes: You know, you don't usually have parents following their kids to school, but, you know, they're at a later part of their career and they want to still work, but they want to be with their kids when they graduate, and they want to migrate to Texas and schools like SMU, which is really exciting.

Hartzell: I agree, I think you've sensed some probably since Covid especially, but sort of a coastal flight,

Holmes: right?

Hartzell: People coming from the coast to places like SMU and Dallas.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: And I'm sure it happens at the corporate level, but we certainly see them on the students and the faculty. Yeah. 

Holmes: Okay. So we're super excited at Texas Capital to have a really strong relationship with SMU. We've had one in the past. You know, we recruit, we have some people participating in classrooms and stuff and different boards, but it's kind of going to the next level now. We did the first-of-its-kind end zone at Ford Stadium, where we painted the end zone Texas Capital, which I thought was enough. But while we were there painting the end zone and activating, you know, that super exciting venue, somebody kind of jokingly said, Holmes, why don't you buy the jersey patch? And I kind of laughed. And then I got home and I called the head of marketing, and I said, man, you got to call in about the jersey patch. You know, I'm a little competitive too.

Hartzell: Yeah. That's right.

Holmes: And, it looks like, I mean, that's happening and we're so excited about it. And, you know, a master, somebody who's a master at branding, who was, I'll just say, as Jerry Jones who once told me, anytime you can put your brand next to another brand and they both seem elevated, then that's a win-win.

Hartzell: Yeah.

Holmes: And we're super excited to be announced as the jersey patch at SMU for every sport. And I talked to your football coach this morning and your basketball coach. And we're super excited about moving forward. How do you see that partnership growing and in other corporate partnerships in Dallas?

Hartzell: Yeah. And thank you for investing and believing and being such a good partner. And you know that to summarize it from our side, when I talked to Damon Evans, our athletic director, about it, he said, this is just perfect.

Holmes: Yeah.

Hartzell: Like we just couldn't have thought of a better outcome than to have our two institutions aligned with each other. 

Holmes: Thank you.

Hartzell: Two places on the rise.

Holmes: Yeah,

Hartzell: right.

Holmes: For sure.

Hartzell: And that, I think is great. And really, back to your your point earlier. We want to be a great partner. And we know that means being adaptive, being responsive, thinking about new things to try together. It could be a how do we have Texas Capital get involved with our students in the classroom? Some of that's already happening.

Holmes: Yeah.

Hartzell: But that's the kind of thing that ultimately can lift the entire institution. And the athletics is, you know, people call it a front porch. It's connective tissue. Part of the brand. But there are also so many other things that happen around the university. And so, we love that alignment of the two brands. And I think it's going to be hopefully a signal that we're open for business for the broad region.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: And, you know, we want to experiment, try some things, but also be easy to work with.

Holmes: Well, I'll tell you, you all have been great to work with. I mean, Damon, the team behind him, the whole experience has been super, and we wanted to be a part of the dynamic change that's going on here and the momentum that you talked about. Because you see it, you can feel it. And so we're grateful you'd consider us.

Hartzell: Yeah. No, thank you. You can do more. But thank you.

Holmes: Well if it goes like we hope to then we will.

Hartzell: Yeah. No, thanks.

Holmes: We will. So this is kind of fun, talking about sports. I think, I may be wrong, but I think you're the only president of a university that has participated in the Big 12, the SEC and the ACC. Is that fair?

Hartzell: That may be right. And certainly I think I did something like three conferences in three or four years. It has been a bit of a whirlwind, you know, I think, yeah, I did, that movement's been, it's been fun. It's been interesting.

Holmes: So you may or may not want to comment on the differences between the conferences at the board level. Is there any or do they run the same way?

Hartzell: No. There are differences. You know, I think it's probably also the moments that we were in. So, you know, the Big 12 was in this very beginning of what I would think of as sort of the economic change in college sports. So they passed, there was a court case that made it okay to play players $5,500 a year or $5,800. It seems quaint now,

Holmes: right?

Hartzell: That was a big deal.

Holmes: That seems cute, right?

Hartzell: Yeah. Now it's like. That's like book money. But that was a big deal at the time. And that was the beginning of the tipping point. I think, you know, that helped, that move, the way I described it when we left to go to the SEC as Texas, the differences between the haves and the have nots were going to widen. And Texas is and was a have and was going to need to remain a have.

Holmes: Yeah.

Hartzell: And so the Big 12 felt like it was the beginning, kind of tip of the spear of the of the big changes. SEC was going into a room of kind of the big established football brands.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: We thought we brought something different and new. We certainly believed that academically. And, and that had its own dynamic. And now in the ACC, we're back. And I think if anything, the changes in college sports have only accelerated. And there's a lot of new faces around the table. Both universities that just recently joined the conference, a lot of new presidents, which is kind of a nationwide issue. But also incredible academic brands.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: And so part of where I've gotten a lot of joy out of that room in particular, is you go around the table and you get to talk to, you know, Duke, to Stanford, to Berkeley, Virginia and North Carolina.

Holmes: That's great.

Hartzell: I mean, it's just, it's great. And so as a president who left a university in the AAU, which is kind of the big club for universities, the ACC has become a de facto set of colleagues of people where I can get advice, I can I can test some things. And it's huge for our provost and for the deans.

Holmes: That's great.

Hartzell: So that ability to connect to some of the very top universities in the country is a big deal.

Holmes: You describe the current environment in college sports, I think, as, "maximal uncertainty." I'm not sure maximal is a word, but but if it is.

Hartzell: I was on a roll.

Holmes: You're the academic. I'm not. Maximal uncertainty. What is maximal? Where do we go from here?

Hartzell: Yeah. I mean, and that's partly why I said something that may or may not have been a valid English phrase. There is so much uncertain about how college sports might look like in even six months. Right. So if the Protect College Sports Act passes the House, and in a way that conforms to what the Senate passed, we have at least new ground rules. We can see that path. But then what if it doesn't? And we're back to kind of well, now, every state still has its own rules. There is a salary cap, but it's soft, and people are pushing the boundaries in lots of ways. Is there not another line round of restructuring and movement? So it is a, you know, the change that's been in place since I've been a president has been just stunning. But it doesn't feel like we're almost done.

Holmes: No. When you have, it seems like, you have some detractors, but you have some very influential people from Nick Saban, arguably the best or most successful football coach in history. Senator Cruz, others really championing the bill. Does it pass or does it not?

Hartzell: Gosh, I hope so. I'm not a political expert. That's part of why I was happy to go to a private school.

Holmes: Well said.

Hartzell: But, man, we need something, you know, and I hope people don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Holmes: Yeah.

Hartzell: You know, and I'm sure that any single person you ask who has a sort of a a stake in the fight might rewrite one section or another. But. Wow, we need something. And my impression from where I sit is if you get a window of opportunity in Congress, you've got to grab it. You don't know what's happening next session.

Holmes: No, you don't.

Hartzell: And we need some stability. We need some ground rules. And even if, again, if I might rewrite a few of them. I think it would really let us start to act under that set of rules and get back to serving our student athletes.

Holmes: Yeah, it doesn't mean that's the end.

Hartzell: That's right.

Holmes: Can always improve upon it.

Hartzell: That's right.

Holmes: Yeah. So. Well, before we get off the topic of sports, congratulations on, I think you all surprised the ACC when you you came in and won the conference championship in football and did some other really great things. So congratulations on that. Okay we're going to wrap up here. But I got some just kind of some fun rapid fire questions for you.

Hartzell: Yeah.

Holmes: How do you unwind after a long day?

Hartzell: Great question. So, I've been very fortunate to be married for 35 years. A lot of it is a good dinner with my wife. One of the things I tried, and, you know, this job interferes, probably like yours does for you. But dinner at home has always been a priority. Doesn't always work.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: But. But that's a resettling, recentering moment for me.

Holmes: It's a, it's a real privilege that you don't take for granted in these seats,

Hartzell: right?

Holmes: Yeah. 

Hartzell: That's a special night. Yeah.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: And there are enough other things to call on your time.

Holmes: Right, 

Hartzell: right. To be able to go home and have a nice dinner. So that's part of it. Right now, our kids are grown and outside the home. So we have a dog,

Holmes: doing great.

Hartzell: Knock on wood, which is great. Awesome. And so, like a dog, we have a we have this adopted pit bull that is tremendous. And so some of that, I like to watch sports and movies on TV. And there's a little bit of that. I like to listen to music, so just, you know.

Holmes: Being at home.

Hartzell: Yeah,

Holmes: it's probably something you don't get to do a lot.

Hartzell: That's right, that's right. Because, you know, the nights out are often fun and needed and part of the job. So a quiet night at home is great.

Holmes: Good, great. What is the one thing people would be surprised to learn about Jay.

Hartzell: Oh, that's a good question. You know, probably maybe that I'm from Oklahoma. That was more surprising at the old job. You know, somehow the President of Texas was an Okie. But I think there's a little bit about my background. People probably don't know, even the SMU crowd doesn't doesn't all know, some of them are learning. But, you know, my dad died when I was a kid. My mom married.

Holmes: Very young, very like 11 years.

Hartzell: I was 11. Yeah. Thank you. And my mom married a minister, a Perkins grad. So in this kind of weird sense of connectivity, my stepdad is a Methodist minister.

Holmes: Oh, wow.

Hartzell: And a graduate of SMU. So that's another kind of connection point to this place that probably people don't fully understand.

Holmes: I didn't even understand, I knew the first part. I didn't know the second. Okay. What's the one book everyone should read? My homework assignment.

Hartzell: Yeah. Right now. I would say I really liked the book, "Range," by Epstein. Okay. And it's a book about the role of generalists. And he starts off with comparing and contrasting Tiger Woods and Roger Federer and how they grew up differently. But it ends up in a spot where you think about the role of being a generalist. And I think in today's AI technology-heavy world, I think having people who have optionality, flexibility can move around in different kinds of settings as technology enables that. I think it's more salient and more and more important and interesting than ever.

Holmes: That's great. Okay, I'm going to wrap up with one last question I ask all my guests, which is, what is the single most important trait for an effective leader to have?

Hartzell: I think, I think it's probably, it's a saying I've heard different people say in different ways, but it's something about, it's amazing what you're going to accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. If you remember that it's a team sport. The stuff that I've, where I've gotten kudos was largely because the chair I happened to be in,

Holmes: right

Hartzell: The time when I got the hate mail was often because the chair I was in, and so if you focus on the team you're building, on the collective outcomes that you're trying to establish and worry less about, in my case, Jay Hartzell.

Holmes: Right.

Hartzell: I think that to me is something that's important for a leader. What would you say?

Holmes: What would I say? I love what you said earlier about being authentic. I think you gotta do it your way. I think you gotta be authentic. I think you got to be consistent. 

Hartzell: Yeah, I agree with that.

Holmes: And, you know, what I mean by that is, during the hard days, if you reflect that, the the place reflects that.

Hartzell: Yeah. 

Holmes: And you can't be too up or two down. You just gotta be consistent.

Hartzell: Yeah. 

Holmes: And authentic. I think candor is really important.

Hartzell: Yeah, I agree with that.

Holmes: Other people don't love candor as much as me.

Hartzell: I can imagine.

Holmes: But I actually think it's a blessing to be candid with somebody. I mean, I think you're doing people a favor.

Hartzell: No, I think back to somebody I got to meet at the old job, who's Brene Brown, and she's been up here for a Tate since I moved to SMU. And she has this thing about, clear is kind.

Holmes: Yeah, it is,

Hartzell: right. And it's unfair to somebody to hold him accountable for something you never articulated.

Holmes: I, thank you, you said it better than me.

Hartzell: Maximal.

Holmes: Maximal. I think, SMU is an unbelievable blessing to the city of Dallas. $7 billion economically a year, but in so many other ways too, just the brands are linked. I think you're a blessing to SMU. So thank you for being here and thanks for being on the show.

Hartzell: No, thank you. Thanks for your friendship. I don't know, just to disclose that we're friends.

Holmes: Yeah. I hope so. Proud of it.

Hartzell: Me too. And thanks for the partnership and all we're doing together. And just to, you know, conclude, people have asked about the SMU move. I am blessed to be here. You know, I feel very lucky. It feels like the right job at the right time. And in this case, I get to sit down with the right friend.

Holmes: I think it was great for everybody. 

Hartzell: Thank you.

Holmes: Thank you. 

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